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  • #5019
    Legend
    Member

    Agreed Arg

    I did think about this and for people like yourself with few alts that only require shadow it obviously does not benefit at all!
    The problem I saw was that these people would just not run those alts for those quests they require the Phlogs in as they will clearly prioritise and quite rightly so, giving them the chance to collect Phlogs on another toon faster without using a Timer Bypass and than having the opportunity to choose an item instead of 10 Phlogs at lvl 20 is a much better incentive and will also give a more versatile group build, the only downside for yourself is that you don’t loot an item you would never use anyway (fire Phlog)
    All I can suggest for you so you do not lose out is that if u plan on putting mortal on your bow at tier 3 then make another thunder bow with fire tier 3 as a boss/situational beater, you will then benefit, from quick head calculation making 20 runs on each toon would give you ingot option of around 3 tier 3 bows if both archers, this is what I am doing on Gwydrea (2 bows), you will more then likely to be able to also choose a named at lvl 20 in Thunder unstead of Phlogs.
    Remember there will also be others looting and rolling for all and at the moment giving nothing in return, this is all about reducing unused crafting materials at the same time helping other guild members.

    #5020
    Argante
    Member

    I’m happy to help other guild members Leg, I don’t need the fire phlogs as I don’t envisage using them but I do need lots of shadow and if one or two people monopolise on the spares by cutting deals it adversely affects the rest of us.

    One person gives up his fire phlog for a definite shadow phlog if it drops, the other gives up his phlog for definitely no chance of a shadow regardless of whether they drop, neither need the fire phlog so the person receiving the fire phlogs would get two in any case because, as you say, they are useless to the people giving them up. But one of these fire phlogs has suddenly become more useful as a trade was made making it superior to the other phlog even though they are identical. I have two questions: 1) How is this a fair system? and 2) Do you work in Banking?

    #5022
    Legend
    Member

    deleted and summarised in a checklist below

    #5023
    Argante
    Member

    *we canโ€™t treat Shadow as equal to Fire*

    In that case I’ll ask the people who need fire phlogs who would make this deal with someone to abstain from doing so. You’ll get the fire phlogs anyway, do you really care who gets the shadow phlogs you give up? Would you rather let people roll for them as we do for pretty much everything else in the guild?

    Looking at it another way, let’s have a hypothetical situation: 2 shadow phlogs drop for people who don’t need them. One of them hands it to a player he has made a deal with, the other puts his up for roll. Who am I more likely to want to give my fire phlog to? The person who has given me no chance to obtain one or the person who has given me a small chance to gain one?

    I would go further and say that if you want to make deals with your phlogs and not put them up for roll then don’t roll for the ones that you need when they become available (sound familiar? The O/P stated “this will also ensure that those people that put materials up for roll are the ones that deserve to roll for others.”)

    I would like some input from somebody else on this issue. Feel free to add your opinions.

    #5025
    Legend
    Member

    I think you are missing the point that you will either never or rarely have the opportunity to roll for Shadow Phlogs as people who sign up will just bring the alt that requires those Phlogs, also we then might be stuck for certain classes for EH runs which can be very frustrating, it would also mean that people would not have the option of potentially choosing a named item on the 20th run and having the 30 Phlogs compared to having to choose the 10 Phlogs therefore losing out on named, it could also potentially benefit you by sacrificing Phlogs on one alt for another, means get a guaranteed named and the full 30 Phlogs by run 30 on each (one on 20), instead of no named and left over Phlogs by run 30 of each, 10 extra runs on each for a guaranteed named not bad if you only have 2 toons.
    Alternatively don’t sign up, you are not adversely effected as you loot your own shadow and those signed up will not roll for your fire Phlogs.
    This system works so well for so many so perhaps I need a checklist for people, if you qualify then feel free to sign up.

    Opt out if:
    -You do not own DDO: Stormreach
    -You have no idea what you will craft at the moment on your toon for tier 3.
    -You are unable to read.
    -Due to the above you have no idea what tier 3 abilities from Wiki are.
    -You cannot be bothered to plan for tier 3 abilities.
    -You just like the look of named crafting items so tend to just loot as they are shiny.

    Opt in if:
    -You have a clear plan.
    -You have a number of alts that require various Phlogs.
    -You are willing to log a required class without being penalised as we need for comfortable completion even if you don’t need the Phlog, can then get extra on alt.
    -You will more than likely get a named item and tier 3 upgrade by run 20ish, instead of having to run another pointless 10+ runs as you wanted an item (basically free named item), but need toons that can swap Phlogs.
    -You don’t mind giving away Phlogs that are not required to others that have signed up or general roll if they do not require.
    -You should not roll for Phlogs put up for roll from people not signed up unless no one else requires, (you should get enough anyway).
    -You have a plan and require both types but can’t really give any up for roll at the moment, perhaps in the future though you can.
    -For now Fire and Shadow should be treated as completely different loot items, there is really no reason to currently cross trade.

    Summary:
    -People not signed up don’t lose out and even benefit from the flexibility of toons brought by others, they can do what they like with their Phlogs, those signed up will not roll for these.
    -People signed up will potentially get an item and tier 3 upgrade on run 20 instead of one or the other, can start completions on next toon then.
    -People signed up will not benefit from others.

    This is not an us and them scenario, by having the 30 Phlogs and not 20 this is a great solution for a lot of people so extra unrequired runs are not required.
    if you don’t sign up it’s no problem at all you don’t lose anything.

    #5028
    Lisa
    Member

    You seem to be taking this in a bad way Leg, so let me just clarify;

    I don’t feel miffed at all, I don’t have a particular issue with the system, I’m just saying some might and I was using myself as examples of why.

    I will likely be changing my caster element and I haven’t decided what to yet but, as I said, I’m not even flagged for Fire and I know I definitely want one shadow weapon so it’s a non issue for me.

    I don’t feel forced to bring my tank, I just said I thought it was needed. Heck, I only made her to do my bit for the guild, particularly because I don’t really like healing and I’d feel bad if I didn’t bring someone with a needed role at least some of the time.

    I wasn’t suggesting rolling for phlogs you don’t know if you want but if someone is planning a definite shadow item and considering a fire one in the other hand, they might want to roll for shadow ones but just loot their own fire until they’ve had time to plan/decide.

    All I was trying to say is that making rules make some people uncomfortable and this is a very chilled guild so some (not me in particular) might be a bit off-put and not join our guild raids.

    #5029
    Argante
    Member

    I honestly don’t think I’m being unreasonable in what I ask. I actually think I’m being more reasonable than you Leg which is why I’d like to hear other people’s opinions too as I accept that I may be wrong or missing a point. I honestly don’t think I am but will listen to any and all arguments.

    #5030
    Lisa
    Member

    Crikey Leg, just read your last post, don’t take it so personally, nobody is attacking you or your suggestion, we’re just offering opinions.

    #5032
    Legend
    Member

    I honestly don’t care if people sign up or not, most of my last post was a bit jokingly anyway in the don’t section, the do’s section pretty much addresses all concerns about putting up items for roll, I agree with Arg’s scenario not being very fair that people can trade, loot and roll for anything, this is addressed.

    By having 30 Phlogs turbine is basically making you choose between an item or tier 3 at lvl 20, for those with the alts this gives you both options at lvl 20 which is a good thing, no-one loses out on anything as those alts would more than likely not be run in that quest anyway so nothing would be for roll, however it gives us more versatility with the group build, but I feel I am just repeating myself on these points, perhaps they are not clear.

    The statement ‘If you don’t need it, then it should be put for roll’ makes perfect sense, unfortunately due to the mechanics of these 2 raids people can greatly benefit from another method without adversely effecting anyone else.

    This works for all currently signed up.

    Wishie is a prime example of the benefits of this, if we need an Intim or Healer in an EH Wyrm he won’t be put out by bringing his as he will get 2 Shadow Phlogs when running either of his other 2 alts, esp as Aeot requires 60 shadow Phlogs, he can get these in around 25 runs instead of 40 or go for the 40 runs and be able to choose 2 raid items he would not normally have the option of and still have the phlogs for 2 items + a few more for another alt! he then also gets the option of raid items for the 20th run on the non shadow alt, therefore win/win for Wishie and for the group, he has a lot less incentive to run a toon over one that requires the Shadow Phlogs and then put that Phlog for roll, why would or even should he!
    The way Xuth has been running these the situation is slightly different, he has been requesting the trade in Shadows from one run to the next as he only runs 2 alts and clearly wants the Phlogs on his rogue, he however has been rolling and looting Fire Phlogs as he has a clear plan to dual so will use all, I believe this is also fine, I don’t think he would appreciate having to give up his shadow when Fire are a lot less sought after.
    If we had this method from the start I would not have to run Wyrm another 19 times on Grayth for a named (my choice as I wanted item at lvl 20 and not 30ish) but now I can run Grayth, trade my Phlog with say Wishie and then run an alt for 2.

    This is also the reason why we run 2 Wyrms and 1 Thunder, the much greater requirement for shadow.
    Other people do not lose out as we would just have the situation where only alts that require those Phlogs run those quests, the only reason so many Fire are for roll is that simply most people don’t need them, I expect people would even trade on a 5-1+ ratio on these for shadow, have you ever seen a Shadow for roll so far? I have seen 1 in a PUG! (I won it ๐Ÿ™‚
    This is why I have chosen this route instead of if you don’t need put for roll, you will get people always looting shadow cos they bring the required toon which in turn means these are never put for roll and most people don’t really care about the Fire tbh as they know they will more than likely get easily anyway, from people who have a crafting plan putting up for roll.
    You will also get people like yourself that will more than likely not benefit but at least don’t have stuff lying around that others can use and by signing up at least know the loot is going to someone that will use and not the situation where you have no clue what they will do with the loot.
    Also with the EN runs where you are even less likely to get a Shadow Phlog this could work out for you Arg as in the long run you will have a crafted tier 3 for one alt but might be quite a few short on the other, it would give you an easier catch up method if you so wished.

    #5046
    Portilis
    Member

    For my set:

    Angharl: Fire
    Lladislav: Fire
    Mwylachen: Shadow
    Phraataces: Shadow
    Portilis: Shadow
    Sentynel: Fire
    Shubiao: Shadow
    Veiht: Fire

    #5051
    Nath
    Member

    seems like most want shadow…. my fvs is after fire so she will put her shadow for roll/trade and roll for fires ๐Ÿ™‚ 2 toons not decided as levelling and 2 others want shadow so they can put fire for roll/trade…

    #5055
    Xutharion
    Member

    Will add mine, even I don’t raid too much with guild actually ๐Ÿ™

    Xutharion: Fire and Shadow
    Xuth: Shadow
    Emyle: Fire and Shadow
    Khaza: Shadow

    Moreover, I have to give my first shadow phlog that I’ll drop with xuth/khaza/emyle to Lladi.

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